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Yoma 3b - Rav Dimi and Ravin

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1Yoma 3b - Rav Dimi and Ravin Empty Yoma 3b - Rav Dimi and Ravin on Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:42 am

On 3b, אתא רב דימי, Rav Dimi "shows up" from Eretz Yisroel, and throws a wrench into a couple of blatt of discussions, by saying that Rabbi Yochonon disagrees with everything they've been saying. This is really common, I think; a cursory search shows eight כי אתא רב דימי in Yoma alone.

Then אתא רבין, and Ravin disagrees with Rav Dimi's information, and basically seems to say that Rabbi Yochonon agreed with everyone and Reish Lakish is the one who disagrees. This happens a lot too; there are five in Yoma alone. (Almost) always Rav Dimi came first and Ravin corrects him.

Does that mean that Rav Dimi came exactly one time, taught zillions of ma'amarim in the name of Rabbi Yochanon and Reish Lakish, and then Ravin came one time later with corrections? Do we know?

עולא (Ula) does the same kind of thing, turns over the discussion in Bavel, but isn't (usually?) part of the sequence of Rav Dimi, then Ravin. Did he also come exactly one time?

I'm sure travel was hard in those days.

(cross-posted in General Topics)

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2Yoma 3b - Rav Dimi and Ravin Empty Re: Yoma 3b - Rav Dimi and Ravin on Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:11 am

Whoa. I looked at Tosefos (ד"ה דרביה), and I realize that I picked a really bad example. Tosefos understands that Ravin's comment is being brought as evidence for Rav Dimi. Tos. will reject the girsa on the side that says Reish Lakish above in place of ריב"ל (Maharsha), so as not to argue with Reish Lakish here. And Tosefos also removes the girsa in the later gemara that sounds like R' Yochonon himself learns two instead of one, and points out that Rashi there seems to do the same.

A couple of other reasons to say this: Our girsa is
דכי אתא רבין, beginning with a dalet, whereas usually it would be כי אתא רבין. Also, it's hard to see how else we could be referring to the rebbi of R' Yochonon; the other statements by him have no rebbi listed.

So this case is not a good example of the issue I was discussing.

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3Yoma 3b - Rav Dimi and Ravin Empty Re: Yoma 3b - Rav Dimi and Ravin on Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:59 am

Not sure how this helps, but I see that Ravina and Rav Ashi were involved in the previous discussions, and they were certainly well after the time of Rav Dimi and Ravin.

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4Yoma 3b - Rav Dimi and Ravin Empty Re: Yoma 3b - Rav Dimi and Ravin on Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:55 am

I saw that in Kiddushin 12a, Abbaye asks Rav Dimi about his disagreement with Ravin, and Rav Dimi explains it. This at least shows that Rav Dimi was available after Ravin's arrival.

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5Yoma 3b - Rav Dimi and Ravin Empty Re: Yoma 3b - Rav Dimi and Ravin on Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:13 am

I see that the Doros Harishonim (Vol 2) has an extensive discussion of this.
where he argues with Graetz and shows that Rav Dimi and Ravin, and others, came down to Bavel and back multiple times. He brings places where the order of their statements is reversed. He also looks for places in the Yerushalmi where they bring word of Toras Bavel to Eretz Yisroel.

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