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Zevachim 110a - Mishra sharei or miklash kalish

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MichoelR



This seemed like an amazing gemara to me, reminded me very much of the gemara in Nedarim Naarah Ham'urasah about meigiz gayiz or miklash kalish (Tosefos mentions the connection). Here we're talking about two matirin for a korbon mincha, the kometz and the levonah. Both are required; what does bringing one of them do?
Rashi suggests that mishra sharei means that half of the mincha is allowed to be eaten - and you'd need to choose that half! That's amazing. Tosefos complains, how would you choose? [One girsa in Tosefos talks about yesh breirah, but I don't get that - you would be choosing right now, just as when you set aside terumah in part of a pile of grain: there is no breirah involved.]
Tosefos would rather learn that mishra sharei means that half is permitted - but you don't know where, and the other half still carries malkus. Miklash kalish would mean that both halves have a weakened issur and there would be no malkus.

The gemara mentions a third possibility: neither one. I'm guessing that would mean, bringing the kometz, say, doesn't have a halachic impact, nothing happens till the levonah is brought as well.

I don't quite understand why that third possibility isn't the default. What happens normally when you have two requirements for a din? Take a silly example: לא תחסום שור בדישו, Don't thresh with a muzzled ox. Needs to be muzzled, needs to thresh. Would it occur to us to ask, what if it's muzzled but you don't thresh, is that half an issur? What if you thresh but it isn't muzzled?
I know the example is silly, but what is the right category?
What about zeh v'zeh goreim, when do you say that and why isn't it brought here?

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MichoelR



I also don’t understand why the gemara compares this to the din of mefaglim b’chetzi matir.
מישרא שרי־ דאי כי מקטיר ליה בשתיקה לא שרי כזית מינייהו לגמרי היכי הויא מחשבה בההוא זית הא דומיא דזריקה בעינן דשרי לגמרי.
Rashi seems to say that it is poshut to the gemara that if one holds like R’ Meir that mefaglim b’chetzi matir, then it must be mishra sharei, and doing one of the matirin must be able to be matir part of the korbon completely. I certainly didn’t know that when I learned the pigul sugyos; should I take it as a fact? Why is that even called a chetzi matir? I would have called it a full matir, on half the korbon.

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