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Meilah for kodoshim kalim

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1 Meilah for kodoshim kalim on Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:26 pm

Throughout the masechta it is taken as a fact that kodoshim kalim don't have meilah until after the zerikah, and then only for the eimurim. It's an explicit mishnah on 7b.
I don't know of a source for this fact. 12a has a discussion of the sources for meilah from the Torah, and which apply to kodshei mizbeach and which for bedek habayis. There it brings that Rebbi learns that eimurim have meilah after zerikah, from 'כל חלב לה. But again, no source why the rest of the korbon doesn't have meilah beforehand.
Any information on this?

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2 Re: Meilah for kodoshim kalim on Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:38 pm

One place to start is a Rashi in Chulin 117a:
מנה"מ־ דחלב יש בו מעילה ולא מפליג דאפילו חלב קדשים קלים אע"ג דאין בהן מעילה בחייהן דהא ממון בעלים הן יש בו מעילה באימוריהם לאחר שנזרק דמן.
Rashi seems to say that kodoshim kalim don't have meilah until after zerikah because they are ממון בעלים. Belonging to the owners is the opposite to the definition of hekdesh, 'קדשי ה.
If we take Rashi seriously, it sounds like this din is dependent on the shitah of R' Yosi Haglili, who holds everywhere in shas that kodoshim kalim are ממון בעלים. The nafka minahs are in things like shevuos and nezikin. But here would be another nafka minah: all of Maseches Meilah would be only according to him; according to the chachamim kodoshim kalim would have meilah from the start, just like kodshei kodoshim.
It's a very big chiddush.

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3 Re: Meilah for kodoshim kalim on Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:01 pm

It could be that Rashi isn't using the phrase ממון בעלים to refer to R' Yosi Haglili (with true dinei mamon), but to refer to something that is according to everybody. That is, the difference between kodshei kodoshim and kodoshim kalim is that kodoshim kalim are birshus baalim. The baalim decide who gets to eat their portion. Whereas by kodshei kodoshim, none of the korbon is in any human's reshus, though some of it will be eaten mishulkhan gavoha.
The distinction is not whether it's eaten by yisroelim or cohanim; it's who's in control. Kodoshim kalim cannot be called 'קדשי ה.
[Update: R' Zvi Berkowitz learned this way too, boruch shekivanti]

Last edited by MichoelR on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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4 Re: Meilah for kodoshim kalim on Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:33 pm

Hi michoel. How are u? The forum is very quiet lately... Let's get it going again!

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5 Re: Meilah for kodoshim kalim on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:38 am

Good to see you here! (Remind me who sdb1992 is?) For sure it would be great to see other posts here; it's just been me and some bots for a while.
What are you learning? Daf yomi at least, I'm guessing - I'm learning Zevachim so if you'll post on that soon it would be great for me; I don't have a chevrusa or anything, so that's exactly what gemaraboards is supposed to help with.

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