I had several questions on the case of the person who began Shabbos in a cave, daf מד amud beis.
(a) In the gemara's case, where the roof of the cave is less than 4000 amos from one entrance to the other, the gemara says that one needs the principle of "havla'as techumin" in order to allow walking across the whole roof from one end to the other. In other words, if we didn't hold by havla'as techumin, if one walked out the south entrance and walked 2000 amos north on the roof, he would be required to reenter the cave and go out the north entrance to continue on the roof (Rashi) - even though when he had gone 2000 amos from the south entrance, he was already standing in the (overlapping) techum from the north entrance. Why is that? What does it have to do with "havla'as techumin"; why isn't it sufficient that he is now actually standing inside the techum from the north entrance? He is still within 2000 amos of the place where he began Shabbos.
"l'saber es ha-ozen", imagine a person walking west out of a city 1000 amos, turning north, circling the city at a distance of 1000 amos, and coming to the eastern side of the city 1000 amos distant. Would anyone say that he has taken advantage of "combining the east and west techumin"? Or would we say, I don't know what you're talking about; he never went more than 1000 amos from the city, so he is of course still inside the techum. He is within 1000 amos of the city; what more is there to say?
I know that this argument is wrong, but I don't know why.
(b) Why does the gemara give a case where the base of the cave is
4000 amos (and it slants in at the top)? That seems to have nothing to do with it. Would it matter if the cave bottom was 5000, 4000, or 3000 - as long as the top is the same = just less than 4000? If the size of the base is irrelevant, why does the gemara mention it?
(c) Is this cave case brought by the poskim (I didn't see anything marked in the gemara), and if not why not? It seems to be the halacha, and apparently not all that obvious.
(a) In the gemara's case, where the roof of the cave is less than 4000 amos from one entrance to the other, the gemara says that one needs the principle of "havla'as techumin" in order to allow walking across the whole roof from one end to the other. In other words, if we didn't hold by havla'as techumin, if one walked out the south entrance and walked 2000 amos north on the roof, he would be required to reenter the cave and go out the north entrance to continue on the roof (Rashi) - even though when he had gone 2000 amos from the south entrance, he was already standing in the (overlapping) techum from the north entrance. Why is that? What does it have to do with "havla'as techumin"; why isn't it sufficient that he is now actually standing inside the techum from the north entrance? He is still within 2000 amos of the place where he began Shabbos.
"l'saber es ha-ozen", imagine a person walking west out of a city 1000 amos, turning north, circling the city at a distance of 1000 amos, and coming to the eastern side of the city 1000 amos distant. Would anyone say that he has taken advantage of "combining the east and west techumin"? Or would we say, I don't know what you're talking about; he never went more than 1000 amos from the city, so he is of course still inside the techum. He is within 1000 amos of the city; what more is there to say?
I know that this argument is wrong, but I don't know why.
(b) Why does the gemara give a case where the base of the cave is
4000 amos (and it slants in at the top)? That seems to have nothing to do with it. Would it matter if the cave bottom was 5000, 4000, or 3000 - as long as the top is the same = just less than 4000? If the size of the base is irrelevant, why does the gemara mention it?
(c) Is this cave case brought by the poskim (I didn't see anything marked in the gemara), and if not why not? It seems to be the halacha, and apparently not all that obvious.
Last edited by Michoel Reach on Sun May 05, 2013 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total